LogoGarden Responds Regarding Stolen Logos

08.19.2011 : By Scott Lewis

27

I am surprised that I actually got a response from LogoGarden(dot)com, but the email fails to satisfy. The email, supposedly from John Williams himself, passes the buck to the designers they employ but fails to state whether or not my logos will be removed from their site. The email is below.

From me to LogoGarden(dot)com – August 18, 2011 @ 2:12 AM EST

To whom it may concern,

I’m not going to bother with niceties because I’m pretty sure you are aware that a large number of the logos you have in your library are, in fact, stolen. Many of them are stolen from nationally-known logo designers. You even have the Time-Warner logo in your library.

Two of the logos in your library are my designs. Please refer to the attached images to see the logos. I demand that you remove these logos from your library immediately.

The image of the book was designed for a company named Custom Catalog Service in the year 2000. The weave logo was designed in 2003 for DeepWeave Consulting, Inc. in 2003. I have extensive documentation and testimony to prove beyond any doubt that I created and own both of these logos.

If you fail to comply with this request, the next communication you receive from me will be through my attorney.

Reply from LogoGarden(dot)com – August 19, 2011 @ 3:10 PM EST

First, I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. To build our vast symbol library, LogoGarden(dot)com contracts with designers nationwide and from around the world. Many of the symbols in question came from a small number of these designers.

If any of these symbols do indeed violate copyright laws, our policy is to extract them from our online symbol library immediately and to terminate contracts with the designers who submitted them. As a business practice, all the designers we contracted with signed a “work for hire” contract that guaranteed their work would be original.

Given the library’s size, although we do our best to ensure originality of our artwork, we can’t catch everything. And while sometimes a design conflict may be obvious, other times it’s a judgment call. We do our best.

We ourselves have issues with our logo symbols being copied, so we appreciate your concern and vigilance. In the future, if you find any symbols that you feel violate artwork you’ve designed and copyrighted personally, let us know.

Thanks for your understanding,
John Williams,
President, LogoGarden(dot)com

My Reply – August 19, 2011 @ 3:11 PM EST

Mr. Williams,

Thank you for your response. However, you failed to indicate whether or not my logos have been or will be removed from your library. This is not a question of two designs looking similar. They are the exact same symbols. Please reply and tell me how to go about getting them removed as soon as possible.

Sincerely,
Scott Lewis

John Williams’s Reply – August 19, 2011 @ 3:20 PM EST

Scott, Would you mind sending me a screen shot of the symbols/logos on LogoGarden and your logos?

Thanks,
John

My Reply to LogoGarden – August 19, 2011 @ 3:38 PM EST

Please be sure to remove the customer samples depicting the logos as well. The Hannah Robson and TMF Bookkeeping services have appeared on your home page and should be removed as well. The TMF Bookkeeping logo is currently on your home page toward the bottom in the left-hand column.

 
  • http://www.prejeancreative.com/pc_blog/2011/08/19/official-response-from-logogarden-com/ Brent Pelloquin

    Scott, just as I suspected. Looks like we both got a form email from these jokers. Although, we both got different follow up responses. We'll see if they follow up on their promise.

    • Scott Lewis

      I was surprised to get a response at all but I think I can guess what their business model is. They are relying on plausible deniability and placing the burden of policing on their customers and the designers from whom they are stealing. They are not emotional invested in this at all and don't care about protecting their reputation. Mr. Williams has included every symbol he can find in the library and continues to make $79 a pop from them. When someone complains, he promptly removes the symbols in question and keeps going until the next designer complains. It's a really dirty business practice but I suspect he is laughing all the way to the bank. His terms of service and his public statements including the emails are very carefully worded, probably by his legal counsel, to avoid incriminating him in any way. I have a plan though to hopefully educate the public and create a research tool for potential customers. I have registered the domains LogoGarderner.com and LogoHarvest.com and intend to put up a site depicting the stolen logos compared with the originals. I also intend to allow visitors to upload examples of theft that they discover on the site.

      • Donna DeSousa

        Hi Scott, I will work on getting you the images from my logo designs and his in case they will be useful. He still has my designs on the site. I can't even believe it.

        • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

          Donna, don't send them to me. I haven't done anything with the site yet. I'm not sure when I will be able to. I'm kind of waiting to see what happens with the GAG's investigation into whether or not a class action suit is possible. I'm swamped right now.

  • http://www.jfisherlogomotives.com Jeff Fisher LogoMotives

    Funny, Mr. Williams' "it's not our fault" response sounds very familiar to that of the CEO of a [pre-HP] LogoWorks when they got caught selling the logo designs of others. If Williams has been as connected to the design industry as he claims in his online bios and articles, he would certainly recognize many of the logos having international exposure and many others from design books and annuals. I think his actions and response are B.S.

    • Scott Lewis

      Jeff, I agree 100%. I don't claim to be half the expert he does and I recognized at least 100 logos from the site: yours, Rodney Davidson's, a good number of Prejean's (though I didn't know who designed them until now). I realized after reading Bill Gardner's article that I recognized most of them from LogoLounge.com. Bill said somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 logos were lifted from a fake account LogoGarden had set up on LogoLounge.com. I really hope Bill goes after them.

  • http://www.masoodbukhari.com Masood Bukhari

    While none of my logos were stolen, I wrote an "animated" email a couple days ago to him. I got the same form letter response that is posted above. It should be his responsibility to contact his "designers" and locate the stolen logos and remove them himself.

    • Scott Lewis

      Thanks for getting involved, even if you were not directly impacted. Keeping the pressure on will at least tie this ass clown up responding to complaints.

  • Brent Pelloquin

    Guys, thanks for continuing to bring attention to this. We definitely need to keep the pressure on LogoGarden. Scott, I think your site ideas are great and would be an excellent way to keep this blatant theft exposed.

  • http://www.creativebeard.com Chris Taylor

    I noticed the LogoLounge connection pretty quickly after Jeff Fisher brought this thievery to my attention, I actually even mentioned it on David Airey's blog. I'm sorry, but based on the sheer magnitude of stolen identities displayed on LogoGarden, I find it hard to believe that the blame rests solely on their "contracted" designers. I could buy that excuse if there were say 20 – 30 stolen identities, but to have as many as they do, surely somewhere between 400 – 800, it seems pretty clear to me that his designers were "instructed" in some way, shape, or form on what to do and where to go to find the perfect icons. I wouldn't doubt at all that most of those contracted live outside the US where they may not be subject to our laws. Ol' Johnny Williams knew he could hide behind his carefully worded curtains, but all of this seems a little too intentional and thought out to be any coincidence. The only thing that gives me any sort of comfort in this is knowing that while he may be able to hide from the law and it's numerous loopholes, he'll never be able to hide from us again.

    Oh and Scott, excellent move on the sites, just be sure to allow an area for updates about the various legal results that come out of this . . . we often hear the "shouting" in this type of action, but never hear about the actual consequences of the action taken.

    • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

      Here here, Chris. I plan to turn this righteous anger into a useful service for logo designers. The site will focus initially on policing LogoGarden but I want it to serve as a resource for all designers to expose intellectual property theft and to find out how they can fight back. I would really appreciate everyone helping promote the site once it's up. Also, which name do you like best: LogoHarvest.com, LogoGardener.com or Comparify.it ? The last one is in keeping with my brand (Iconify.it and Technify.me).

      • Donna DeSousa

        Wait a sec. John Williams responded? What is up with that? And if it matters, I like Comparify.it The others sound too similar to the (beeeeeep) mentioned above.

        • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

          It's definitely not /that/ John Williams. I think it is just someone being clever.

  • Brent Pelloquin

    Well said, Chris. I agree completely.

  • Heather

    I can't remember whose blog I saw it on, but there's actually something in their terms and conditions when you buy one of their logos that states purchasing a logo through them means the buyer is liable for any copyright violation, not LogoGarden. Of course, they ARE liable, but once you click the 'I agree' button, you basically agree to shoulder all of the blame if you get caught. Completely stupid. I hope these guys go down hard. The next time I see John Williams' face, it better be behind a cash register saying 'Do you want fries with that?'

    • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

      Heather, you read correctly. Item #4.2 on their ToS reads: "(2) Trademarks and Copyrights. User acknowledges that no trademark, copyright or service marks are being conveyed under this Agreement. User acknowledges that LogoGarden has no obligation or duty to perform copyright, trademark or service mark searches to validate the symbol database is not infringing on any trademark, copyright or service marks. Accordingly, LogoGarden encourages Users to perform their own independent searches. User acknowledges that LogoGarden shall have no responsibility to assist User in seeking state or federal intellectual property protection (i.e., trademark registration). LogoGarden shall not be responsible to assist User to perfect the Users rights.

      (3) Third Party Rights. If Users believe any content appearing on the Web Site infringes another party’s rights, please to notify us of this infringement."

    • http://www.logoplanetlab.com Jeffrey Mardis

      Love the "want fries with that?" remark – Ha, ha, good one!

  • http://www.logoplanetlab.com Jeffrey Mardis

    First off, I want to give a good hearty "THANK YOU" to Jeff Fisher, Scott Lewis and Bill Gardner for quickly alerting the design community to this travesty (I was a the first reader to post when this story broke on LogoLounge.com) . And while I've been in the graphic design field for many years (since 1993), I've just last year set sail out on my own (I'm a late bloomer). At the very least, the LogoGarden debacle gives a severe black eye to the logo design community, making designers appear crass and unsympathetic (and even out-and-out stupid) when it comes to the regard of the property rights others. There is NO HONOR in this kind of behavior, and concerned designers must stand together not only to defend themselves, but to defend the community as a whole. Doing so will help keep such blatant charlatans at a minimum, and help strengthen the mutual respect among designers in regards to creative freedom and intellectual property rights issues. Kudos once again to all who are actively involved in trying to expose this mess, I will be waiting for the launch of LogoHarvest.com, LogoGardener.com, Comparify.it (or LogoGardenTiller.com or LogoGardenKiller.com – Ha,ha). All the Best – Jeff

    • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

      Thanks, Jeffrey. Logo designers have one of the funnest jobs imaginable. I have found the majority of the designers to be really decent people who are always eager to connect with other designers and pay respect to good work. It may be a competitive industry by nature when it comes to getting projects but I've never seen any bitterness. We all want to see one another do well and I think that is why we came together quickly to rally against a business practice that hurts us all and ultimately hurts our clients. And by the way, good luck with the new freelance business. I did it for 7 years and it was one of the most challenging, rewarding, educational and happiest times of my life. You are in for a great adventure.

  • http://www.logoplanetlab.com Jeffrey Mardis

    Scott, you're right-on brother about the competitiveness of this business. But you're equally right about the high level of respect, and mutual regard for success and growth. Just like any other occupation, we have "heroes" in this business that we look up to and admire (Saul Bass, Bill Gardner, Tim Frame, Schwartzrock Graphics, J. Sayles Design Co., are just a few of my favorites). But heroes are to be "emulated" – not "imitated". And that's the fun of it – we're here to, strengthen, grow and to push ourselves to be "on par" with one another (if we can). Obviously, talent varies widely within the logo design community, and "everyone" cannot be "The Best", but that does not mean we cannot support one another and strive for that high mark in the daily calling of our individual businesses. This is just another reason why shams like "LogoGarden" must be brought to light. If I can help in any way, don't hesitate to contact me.

    • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

      Jeffrey, very eloquently stated. I think those of us who take our craft seriously and for whom it is a passion would never dream of ripping off our heroes. They stand as beacons of the level to which we strive. Those guys (and girls) are just like the rest of us, they just happen to be really good at what they do and have achieved a measure of success.

  • John Williams

    I would contact Time Warner and WWf – they would probably be happy to handle it.

  • Pingback: LogoGarden: Copyright and Do-It-Yourself Logos | Plagiarism Today

  • Peter

    I wonder why you all are giving him any courtesy at all. People like this deserve to be dealt with as they deserve; they use Paypal for their payment processing and so all one needs to do is do a DMCA complaint with Paypal and you'll see how fast he will remove the stolen artwork once Paypal gets involved. Check out this link for the DMCA notice https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/InfringementRpt_full

    • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

      Peter, I agree. I did go out of my way to be courteous. He ended up taking down my logos before I had a chance to contact PayPal but I did contact Rackspace, his hosting company. Rackspace, unfortunately, wasn't especially helpful and even accused one designer of harassing Mr. Williams – what a fucking joke. It's okay though, if a lot of us have our way about it, we will see Mr. Williams in court. I don't intend to let this thing go. Taking the logos down isn't enough. He should have to give up his ill-gotten gains.

  • Amelia McGeeson

    When I was very young, just getting involved in graphics, my band needed a Pegasus for a band logo. They asked me to put wings on Phil Hartman's "Poco" horse, and I did, reluctantly. We didn't exactly make much money with this band, and we used it mostly for flyers, but I stayed up nights feeling so guilty about taking someone's logo, even for a virtually unknown band (that broke up two years later). Since then, I copy nothing from anyone and only do my original work. Of course you always get ideas from other pieces, but they are used as inspiration and NEVER look anything like them. The point I'm trying to make is, I was one person with one logo, very long ago …. how does this guy sleep … how do these supposed freelance "designers" sleep at night? …. TAKING MONEY for things they don't create? Furthermore, why hasn't a class action suit been filed against this company?? It's absolutely insane that this company can exist!

    • http://iconify.it Scott Lewis

      Amelia, this is a great story. Thanks for sharing it. It's good to know that there are people in the world who are guided by conscience and do the right thing because it's the right thing. I agree, how does this guy sleep at night knowing he is making money by stealing from others? I truly can't comprehend that mindset.

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